Home » Ask & Discuss » Mathematics. » Algebra « Back to Discussion



Algebra

Hari Shankar's Avatar
Forum Expert
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Post: 2173
12 Jul 2008 14:00:34 IST
0 People liked this
9
976 View Post
Find solutions - School Level?
None

Find all rational numbers a,b and c such that


a+ b \sqrt [3] 2 + c \sqrt [3] 4 = 0


Share this article on:

Comments (9)


Scorching goIITian

Joined: 2 Jul 2008
Posts: 282
12 Jul 2008 14:23:24 IST
3 people liked this

0 is a rational number


rational no. + rational no. = rational no.


(rational no.)(irrational no.)=irrational no.


a is rational


b.(2)^{\frac{1}{3}} =(rational no.)(irrational no.) = irrational no. , it can be only rational no. iff b=0


c.(4)^{\frac{1}{3}} =(rational no.)(irrational no.) = irrational no. , it can be only rational no. iff c=0


a+ (0) + (0) = 0


hence a=0


so we get solution as a=b=c=0

Karan Singh's Avatar

Blazing goIITian

Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 384
12 Jul 2008 14:27:02 IST
1 people liked this

the solution for this is a = b = c =0.


providing the soln in the next post.

®µD®A's Avatar

Blazing goIITian

Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 2717
12 Jul 2008 14:34:53 IST
1 people liked this

yes a=b=c=0.@sachinguptaiit correct answer.
Karan Singh's Avatar

Blazing goIITian

Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 384
12 Jul 2008 14:43:25 IST
4 people liked this

                  .............            eq(1)


          .......................      eq(2)


{ b x eq(1) } - { c x eq(2) }         gives



As is irrational, so ..     b2 - ac = 0        and         ab = 2c2.


So c422 = a2b2 = a3c. If c 0, 22 = a3 / bwhich is false as 4 = 22 is not a prefect cube.


So c = 0. And this means a = b = c =0.


 


Rate if i am correct.

abhishek sinha's Avatar

Forum Expert
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 926
12 Jul 2008 14:57:31 IST
0 people liked this

No need for calculation at all !!!


Sum of three irrational no = a ratonal nos ( the irrational no's being such that none of them is expressible as a ratnal linear combination of any other )


Hence they are all zero individually .


Proof : We know that  if x and y are two irrational nos ( with the above mentioned condition ) they are individually zero .


Now for three nos x,y,z  we apply the above theorem for (x+y) and z ( both irrational )


Hence x+y = 0 , z= 0


hence x=y=z=0

Hari Shankar's Avatar

Forum Expert
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 2173
12 Jul 2008 20:16:23 IST
3 people liked this

Well, this prob is already there in the 11th class (?) text book by R D Sharma and I think many of you are already of that solution. The reason I posted this problem is because of a solution I saw in a book which illustrated a beautiful method for doing this problem, which will remind you of the way the irrationality of \sqrt 2


Before I start that, lets look at the solution posted above because its a classic example of circular logic. In layman terms - which came first the chicken or the egg. Another metaphor that comes to mind: "putting the cart before the horse"


To explain, suppose I ask evaluate: \lim_{x \rightarrow 2} \frac{x^2-4}{x-2} normally, you would say it is equivalent to \lim_{x \rightarrow 2} (x+2) = 4


But every once in a while you will meet someone who will drawl: well, we know that this nothing but the derivative of f(x) = x2 at x = 2 and hence the limit is 4. We will then have to point out that you are putting the cart before the horse, because actually, that derivative is arrived at by calculating this limit in the way given above


Likewise, when you say "( the irrational no's being such that none of them is expressible as a ratnal (sic) linear combination of any other ) " someone has to point out that that is precisely the object of the problem. The result of the problem itself has been used to prove the problem! And that deserves Winner - Third


Ok, now for the serious stuff:


a+ b \sqrt [3] 2 + c \sqrt [3] 4 = 0


We can actually assume that a,b and c are integers for if they were not, by multipying out by the LCM, you can convert it into an equation in integers. Also, then it follows that not all of a,b and c are even for if they would be, we can go on dividing the equation by 2 till we reach a stage when atleast one of them is odd. i.e. gcd(a,b,c) > 2


\Rightarrow a^3+ 2b^3+4c^3 = 6abc (using a well known identity)


You can easily see that a has to be even. So, let a = 2a_1


The equation becomes 8a_1^3 + 2b^3 + 4c^3 = 12a_1bc


Divide by 2 and you get,


4a_1^3 + b^3 + 2c^3 = 6a_1bc


In the same way, you can now set, b = 2b_1 for the next iteration and similarly next, c = 2c_1


This means that a, b and c are all even contradicting our original statement that atleast one of a, b and c is odd.


Finito!

abhishek sinha's Avatar

Forum Expert
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 926
12 Jul 2008 21:44:33 IST
0 people liked this

 


The above is a classic example of  mis understanding ( or unability to understand) a subtle logic !!(it also deserves the same Winner - Third)


I think The above expert  has forgotten the basic stuff about mathematics and also a li'l bit of english as he has completely missed the point !!! ( don't mind ,it happens at this age !!!)


the irrational no.s that I was talking about was (2)^{\frac{1}{3}} and(4)^{\frac{1}{3}}.


My point was (2)^{\frac{1}{3}} is not expressible as = q(4)^{\frac{1}{3}} ( for some rational q ) ( it is obvious as then q= ( 1/(2)^{\frac{1}{3}} !!!!)


Then I proved a theorem : It says that if bx +cy = 0 ( where b,c are rationals and x,y are irrational of the type mentioned ) then b=c=0


This follows obviously as if c!=0  then y =(-b/c)x thus violating the condition . Hence c= 0 similarly b=0


Similarly  consider a +bx +cy = 0  ( as is the case  here )


so a rational no + an irrational no = 0


so both are zero .( otherwise a ratonal can't be an irrational one )


i.e.a=b=c=0




 


 




 


 

Hari Shankar's Avatar

Forum Expert
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 2173
13 Jul 2008 10:06:50 IST
0 people liked this

Sorry, age makes me dense at times. I could follow your argument right up to where you deftly proved that bx+yc cannot be zero for non-zero b and c.


However, in the next step, it has been directly assumed without justification that bx+cy is an irrational number. (Quoting from the above post: so a rational no + an irrational no = 0)


Kindly prove that bx+cy is not equal to any rational number. It is not enough to prove that it cannot be equal to zero, as zero is just one of infinitely many rational numbers.


And that is precisely the statement of the problem. And the basis for my statement that the method presented by you constitutes what is known as circular logic.


This is solved by Titu Andreescu, who trains the USA team for the International Mathematics Olympiad.


If such a facile solution did not occur to him, perhaps there must be something unsound in our logic.

Hari Shankar's Avatar

Forum Expert
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 2173
13 Jul 2008 18:21:11 IST
0 people liked this

no news yet here




Quick Reply


Reply

Some HTML allowed.
Keep your comments above the belt or risk having them deleted.
Signup for a avatar to have your pictures show up by your comment
If Members see a thread that violates the Posting Rules, bring it to the attention of the Moderator Team
Free Sign Up!

Preparing for IIT-JEE ?

Arihant Revision Package for IIT JEE - Books, Practice Tests + Rank Predictor


@ INR 1,995/-

For Quick Info

Name

Mobile No.

Find Posts by Topics

Physics.

Topics

Mathematics.

Chemistry.

Biology

Parents

Board

Fun Zone

Sponsored Ads